One of the reasons a lot of people hold their religious dogma over science, is because science is open ended - scientists understand that everything we think we know could later be found to be wrong, so they never state their ideas as law. But with dogma, people just assume they are right, and then they blindly stomp over everything with that assumption...
Strange how science could understand the quality of humility better than organized religion.
Ooooh, I don't know if you're giving scientists too much credit there. While many are very open-minded and willing to admit that they were wrong, there's also a lot that don't act that well at all. Scientists can be as arrogant as religious fanatics, sometimes worse.
Science has birthed the greatest nightmares of the modern world - the atom bomb and chemical warfare certainly come to mind. Science has created a world where man thinks he's the smartest thing in the cosmos and as such decides that as long as he's clever enough to use and exploit everything, he should. There's no humility there. Ask the animals kept in cages and being cut open and pulled apart by scientists if they feel scientists are kind and humble. They aren't.
Everyone is fallible and science is not the field of all humanity, humility and bright ideas. It's helped us but it's also hurt us, hell, it's hurt the entire planet.
To this day science denounces everything it can't codify and put a name on as nonexistant. There's a great deal of arrogance and bull-headedness in that.
What I guess I'm trying to say is that I'm tired of people putting science on a pedestal, as if it's the best thing since sliced bread and so much better than those 'silly' religions. It's not. To me, they're both one and the same: A bunch of people in long coats (so what if it's a cossack or a lab coat?), holding an awful lot of big books and telling me what they figure the universe is like. When I disagree, they call me a fool or worse. 99% of all humans, whether they be men of science or of faith, seem to share the belief that everyone must praise them for their bright ideas and nobody should ever disagree. That's the sad truth.
"Science has created a world where man thinks he's the smartest thing in the cosmos and as such decides that as long as he's clever enough to use and exploit everything, he should."
Actually, this tends to be the view of the conservative right and religious fanatics who say that "God created animals/plants/the earth for humans to use as they will" where science leans more towards conservation, and even more so recently. Heck, humans have used and abused the earth to the best of their ability as long as they've existed. True, science has made some of the uses and abuses worse. And I'm not denying that without science we would not have the atomic bomb, etc. Things like that tend to be created/invented because politics demand it. Science on it's own is more geared towards understanding the world around us.
If this is the religious view, how come the true exploitation and rape of the earth didn't start until the industrial revolution, when science began to take over? Is it because the conservative right and the religious fanatics are using science to carry out this dogma? If so, science is merely a tool and not something entirely different from religion, merely a way through which it acts. It's an interesting thought. I think basically the fault lies with humankind itself, anything it touches, it finds some kind of excuse to bend to it's own end, whether that excuse is scientific or religious.
It's just a sad but true fact that advanced science has given humans advanced methods by which they can greedily take whatever they want. So whether it's a good thing or a bad thing is debateable.
Also, ideally speaking - but as I said, what's ever ideal? - Religion does not teach that humans shold use the earth or the planets as we wish. Humans were appointed as the stewarts and guardians of nature, not tyrants. The bible specifically says that man holds dominion over the earth, but that doesn't mean domination. Dominion is that which all kings and lords have over their land and people. A lord may spoil the land and treat his peasants miserably, but that only makes him a lousy ruler, and the bible most certainly speaks out against such rulers.
Also, even if politics demands it, things like the atomic bomb should not have been built. Women where persecuted as witches and innocents stoned to death as scapegoats through religion because politics demanded it, but these actions were still despicable. Politics demanding anything does not defend an action. Somebody received a lot of money and built a bomb that would destroy a lot of lives. That's how it happened. It's not the fault of politics, it's the fault of a singular scientist who was a greedy bastard. And without advanced science, it would have never happened.
Don't get me wrong, I'm not Christian, I'm certainly not religious - I think of myself as spiritual. I just get tired of advocates of science sweeping all of science's horrors under the carpet, and dumbing down religion to he point that they claim it alone is responsible for all human stupidity and ignorance. Both science and religion are flawed because mankind is flawed. Neither is better than the other because both will always find ways to justify man's greed and shortsightedness.
I certainly did not mean to say everything science has accomplished was a good thing, nor that scientists who create horrible things such as the atomic bomb are blameless. I certainly agree with you that all things created by humans are flawed. I don't think anything and everything achieved through science is necessarily a good thing; far from it.
Also, I understand the ideal of religion. I do not mean to denounce religion. The ideal and the original purpose of religion was to provide answers to unanswerable questions and provide morals for society. However, many small-minded people simply use religious "reasoning" to further their own selfish goals.
It's true, without advanced science, the atomic bomb would never have been created. People would still be killing each other with spears. But you could also say that without religion, things like Sept. 11th would never have happened. But without religion, many people would have no guidelines for their lives. And without advanced science, we wouldn't have medicine either. Both religion and science provide both good and bad things for society.
I just tend to think that religion has a much larger tendency to misused and by a far greater number of people. But I guess that's not to say it isn't possible that I have a biased perspective. *shrugs*
I recognize that some people within science are sometimes no better than Pope Innocent III. The whole idea of 'publish or perish' has created a community that is slow to change, quick to dismiss, and way too interested in money. But these are just the people within their organizations, and people are not perfect.
However, the actual subject of science as it is written - is sound, and open-minded by its very nature. Religion, by its nature, states all matters as 'truth' that must be taken on faith. Taken on their own, separate from people and from each other - both aspects serve a purpose in society. But if we are continually forced to put them up against each other - I choose science every time...
Yes, I see your point. I think ideally science is more open-minded than religion... it's only unfortunate that nothing will ever be run ideally, which is the reason why both religion and science will always bring us more trouble than they're worth.
Science has birthed the greatest nightmares of the modern world - the atom bomb and chemical warfare certainly come to mind. Science has created a world where man thinks he's the smartest thing in the cosmos and as such decides that as long as he's clever enough to use and exploit everything, he should. There's no humility there. Ask the animals kept in cages and being cut open and pulled apart by scientists if they feel scientists are kind and humble. They aren't.
Everyone is fallible and science is not the field of all humanity, humility and bright ideas. It's helped us but it's also hurt us, hell, it's hurt the entire planet.
To this day science denounces everything it can't codify and put a name on as nonexistant. There's a great deal of arrogance and bull-headedness in that.
What I guess I'm trying to say is that I'm tired of people putting science on a pedestal, as if it's the best thing since sliced bread and so much better than those 'silly' religions. It's not. To me, they're both one and the same: A bunch of people in long coats (so what if it's a cossack or a lab coat?), holding an awful lot of big books and telling me what they figure the universe is like. When I disagree, they call me a fool or worse. 99% of all humans, whether they be men of science or of faith, seem to share the belief that everyone must praise them for their bright ideas and nobody should ever disagree. That's the sad truth.
Actually, this tends to be the view of the conservative right and religious fanatics who say that "God created animals/plants/the earth for humans to use as they will" where science leans more towards conservation, and even more so recently. Heck, humans have used and abused the earth to the best of their ability as long as they've existed. True, science has made some of the uses and abuses worse. And I'm not denying that without science we would not have the atomic bomb, etc. Things like that tend to be created/invented because politics demand it. Science on it's own is more geared towards understanding the world around us.
It's just a sad but true fact that advanced science has given humans advanced methods by which they can greedily take whatever they want. So whether it's a good thing or a bad thing is debateable.
Also, ideally speaking - but as I said, what's ever ideal? - Religion does not teach that humans shold use the earth or the planets as we wish. Humans were appointed as the stewarts and guardians of nature, not tyrants. The bible specifically says that man holds dominion over the earth, but that doesn't mean domination. Dominion is that which all kings and lords have over their land and people. A lord may spoil the land and treat his peasants miserably, but that only makes him a lousy ruler, and the bible most certainly speaks out against such rulers.
Also, even if politics demands it, things like the atomic bomb should not have been built. Women where persecuted as witches and innocents stoned to death as scapegoats through religion because politics demanded it, but these actions were still despicable. Politics demanding anything does not defend an action. Somebody received a lot of money and built a bomb that would destroy a lot of lives. That's how it happened. It's not the fault of politics, it's the fault of a singular scientist who was a greedy bastard. And without advanced science, it would have never happened.
Don't get me wrong, I'm not Christian, I'm certainly not religious - I think of myself as spiritual. I just get tired of advocates of science sweeping all of science's horrors under the carpet, and dumbing down religion to he point that they claim it alone is responsible for all human stupidity and ignorance. Both science and religion are flawed because mankind is flawed. Neither is better than the other because both will always find ways to justify man's greed and shortsightedness.
Also, I understand the ideal of religion. I do not mean to denounce religion. The ideal and the original purpose of religion was to provide answers to unanswerable questions and provide morals for society. However, many small-minded people simply use religious "reasoning" to further their own selfish goals.
It's true, without advanced science, the atomic bomb would never have been created. People would still be killing each other with spears. But you could also say that without religion, things like Sept. 11th would never have happened. But without religion, many people would have no guidelines for their lives. And without advanced science, we wouldn't have medicine either. Both religion and science provide both good and bad things for society.
I just tend to think that religion has a much larger tendency to misused and by a far greater number of people. But I guess that's not to say it isn't possible that I have a biased perspective. *shrugs*
However, the actual subject of science as it is written - is sound, and open-minded by its very nature. Religion, by its nature, states all matters as 'truth' that must be taken on faith. Taken on their own, separate from people and from each other - both aspects serve a purpose in society. But if we are continually forced to put them up against each other - I choose science every time...